Breakout Session Report Backs from NYCGA on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Raw breakout group feedback below! We have discussed these report backs at our meetings but still need to distill the information and ideas and summarize, any help would be appreciated!
Report backs and notes (grouped into individual document points by Jim): http://visionandgoals.nycga.net/files/2011/10/20111023-Vision-and-Goals-BreakoutNotes1.pdf
Report backs and notes (grouped into individual document points by someone, I think Patrick): http://www.nycga.net/groups/vision-and-goals/docs/ga_breakout_group_feedback_sorted_102311
GA Minutes (not all details were captured): http://www.nycga.net/2011/10/23/nycga-minutes-10232011/ (snippet of breakout session minutes only: http://www.nycga.net/groups/vision-and-goals/docs/1023-ga-breakout-group-reportbacks )
Document in reference: https://visionandgoals.nycga.net/document/ (This may need to be updated in the future once new documents are added.)
Below are the raw notes from the actual breakout groups:
GROUP #1
Re: Point 1:
- Critique of consensus process:
- [Preference for] direct majoritarian method, [don’t allow 10-11% to determine the process]
- Better develop the consensus process, for example, using small breakout groups to build larger consensus
- Allow spokespeople to represent these small breakout groups
Re: Point 2:
- Use local resources to occupy, for example, occupy corporate atriums, Trump Tower, etc., for the day.
- Need map of locations to occupy
- Allow for greater independence of groups and address representation.
Re: Point 3
- Due to cold weather issue, consolidate online spaces, for example, online communication sessions: webinars, salon-style, along with face-to-face meet up.
Re: Point 4:
- Simple language, less jargon, keep it Hemingway-style; ability to translate it into other languages.
Re: Point 5:
- Opposition between people and profit problematic – people and earth rather than anything else; opposition not necessary.
- Consolidate points 2 and 5 because they overlap.
- Focus should be “people-centric.”
Re: Point 6:
- Simpler language for all the points
- “Reappropriate” is too confrontational a verb
- “Step up, Step back” as a larger strategy
Re: Point 7
- Clarification needed:
- “Bottom up” is not right and is too jargony – needs to be clarified
- Which of our freedoms are “inalienable” needs to be clarified
Re: Point 8:
- Very much on point!
Re: Point 9:
- Why “in the past”?
- A little superficial – requires a structural analysis
Re: Point 10:
Simplify the language
Group 2
- Start from personal responsibility.
- Our group expressed discomfort with the idea that technology can solve all problems.
- Our group expressed concern about multiple documents with overlapping agendas. For example what is the relationship between this document and the declaration on the website? Is there a way to create a consolidated document?
- Our group was concerned with the academic tone of the document. Orderly academic language can marginalize large portions of the 99%.
- While our group understands that this is a truncated version of this document, we felt that, divorced from tactics and specificity, visions or principals can feel empty.
- Our group wanted to suggest that we focus on the specificity of this movement, OWS. Historically, all other movements from the civil rights movement, to the labor movement to the women’s movements, to anti-colonial movements have run into SAME barrier “Capitalism”, “the market”, “the economy”. We imagine these to be the ??? of our movement, which all other issues of emancipation are related.
Group 3
- Skip
- Resource-based economy, supply-based. Should be rephrased more publically accessible.
- Move away from “harmony”, towards “impact”.
10 Potentially alienating, prefer to remove, not the focus of the movement.
9 good intention. “Socially constructed”
Overall too lofty. It’s a vision of the future vs. demands still needs focus, too broad.
- “Peace on earth” to lofty. Maybe make this point focused on government actions/spending.
- “Restablish” instead of “define, defend”, otherwise great.
- Is the locus of control of the media important?
5 General support. Living in poverty taking away humanity. Should be a human right that is protected. Need more time – very meaty/important issue.
- Too long. Education: Free quality education empowering critical thinking. Consumer culture: ? Should create a list of human rights à Vision. Overwhelming should be simple, direct and true.
Overall
May not resonate with some communities.
Too wordy (as a short version).
Not focused
Unreadable, should be more readable.
Group 4
Alt Vision - Using education to cover the history of how we got to this socio-economical point in history. Using the past to help the future. If we don’t know what we did wrong officially then how do we change that. Understanding the system.
Alt Vision – Call for Wall Street to empathize with our movement. Engage with the 1%.
Need to explicitly call out an end to patriarchical racism, classist, systems etc. And desire to transcend.
Alt Vision – Maybe what we don’t want instead of what we do, written into a list.
Class consciousness and economic justice.
Concerns with power structure and concentration of powers. Power in the hands of the individuals.
Defining the moment. Show the legitimacy of the group.
Invite educators inappropriate topics. Not as overseers, but as extra ???
We must bring all affected voices into the fold. Make it possible for those who want to participate but either can’t afford to, or lives would incur problems if they came to OWS.
GROUP #5
Overall thoughts
- Electoral improvements that inject greater democracy into our governments can participate in the direct improvement of many of these points. Why isn’t this mentioned anywhere?
- Some of these points can be consolidated.
- There are two kinds of points being made here: policy points and cultural principle points. We feel that there needs to be a greater focus on the policy points.
- Use nothing more complicated that 4th grade language.
Point 1: This is now a nationwide (& worldwide) movement. Development of communications and other shared resources is necessary in order to ensure our continued progress.
Point 2: How do we balance profits with responsible environmental practices? Can we create some economic disincentives for individual economic actors and/or the economy as a whole when we pass the point of environmental damage? Also, are we talking about a zero-growth economy here
Point 3: Mixed feelings here, leaning positive.
Point 4: This should not be mixed. Focus on education.
Point 5: This we liked – it ties into democratic process
Point 6: Like.
Point 7: This is vague. Is it a call for subsidies on food and shelter? Is it calling for the protection of civil rights? We think it could consider some kind of warning system to call attention to inequities. Perhaps this is a call for civil re-education
Point 8: To focus on non-violence here is better. It makes for a more clear call. Also, we want to note here the importance of the idea that peace spreads outward from the individual.
Point 9: Some of this is just human nature, and we will not be able to eliminate it from ourselves. We should call for the elimination of it in government, but allow for it at the individual level. Also we suggest using positive rather than negative language. Add the word “celebrate.”
Point 10: Points 9 & 10 are very similar, but being clear about a religious respect provision may be useful.
Group 6
6.1 Point #1
The visions are great near process of for back first that’s most important
You Occupy together website points listed on
#1 what would be very important i & nation wide gathering of bodies
We need an online forum like a wiki
6.2 Pont # 2
Beautiful
Barter notion is important
What does this mean? It is way too vague. In harmony with nature needs more detail.
Include in nature & human rights based economics by not exploiting each other. We will not exploit nature.
Presenting and protecting the ecosystem and environment should be in the wording.
6.3 Point # 3
- We need global redistribution. ? Would take a centralized system.
-Get rid of centralized government also.
- Ending systematic exploitation (wording)
-We need state power thru revolution to do this until then how will we encourage and support our resistance?
- Promote the value of economic equality among everyone
- A wage time standard of equality.
- Does not like liberation, emancipation, holy language.
6.4 Point # 4
-Add the word free.
-Student loans are small compared to the bailout money.
-Teach kids new paradigm.
-Challenge the psychology of selfishness and promote selflessness.
- establish peace and green economies in our new education.
- teach direct democracy.
- make it student centers, give students more in their education.
6.5 Point #5
We need to do this
but leaders won’t let us do this
We need state power for our movement
what does re-appropriate mean it doesn’t make sense
please simplify the language in the visions points
for people over profits we have to emancipate profits, we need a barter system.
Lets move to a cooperative not corporate economy
more in to a local economy not national chains
6.6 Point # 6
We need to vote within our media dollar don’t by cable
the idea of truth is naive
lets give people access to knowledge instead
I want transparency in media
revealing sources are being honest
media should be independent of business
I want the words “creative and open” here in doc
6.7
Occupy Together
Personal visions
We should have as few points as possible
this all comes down to “income equality”
How to deal with incarceration in the future
A productive polling
Punishment W/O prisons/re-envision punishment
We all don’t have the same vision.
Also of people like optimism and we alienate them
We want to know the visions, goals, relationships with demands. We need more definition in visions and goals
Group 7
Point#1 Purpose of the blueprint.
Condense, edit narrow down or not?
Get sound bitey without appearing like OWS statement.
Internet based communication is unreliable and privileged, but please get on it and participate. The world already looks to OSW for president.
National and international further presence.
Brooklyn GA point ??? we connected to or autonomous from OWS.
Horizontal empowerment for other occupations. Encourage autonomy and solidarity.
Stands with declaration.
Point#2 Economy in harmony with nature.
These points are meant to be developed here, deliberately unclear.
Consider the Judeo-Christian concept of humans at the top of the food chain.
Direct link to Bolivian movement.
Does it mean lack of industry and automization? Ambiguity concern.
Disregard of nature for the sake of economic growth?
No neoletism
Point#3
No centralized financial system
One collapse leads to infinite others
Extension of the “global insurrection against the banks and corporations”.
We can invent a new form of exchange here.
Point #4 Empowering educational paradigm vs. consumer culture.
Can’t disagree
We believe there is an exploitative culture.
Encourage a mass consumer boycott for shopping season.
Point#5 People and nature before profit.
Point#6 Media à Reappropriate and localize.
Major focus on localization
Not at the expense of global connection.
Decentralize control of #5 and #6
Point#7 Define and Defend inalienable liberties.
Defining these liberties is priority and is a long dialogue.
Easy to generally agree with concepts, but hard to “???” them.
“Bottom up” is a … conflicting term?
Can the “bottom” be defined as 99% or 54% starving?
Bottom worked into our structure, need to address social restructure to eliminate bottom?
Socioeconomic dimensions at occupation. Consider unemployment: basic needs like housing, food clothing, shelter.
Adding “… to create a horizontal structure/culture.” More solution be less universal, needs education.
Feels like more rhetoric and less meaning
Define bottom at poverty line?
Point#8
Peace on Earth with total dedication to nonviolence.
Sounds very violent.
Holocaust example – violence required to end violence.
Historically blind, idealistic. Re: Partially non-violent movement, loose space or defend it?
Civil disobedience vs. violence – fully consider the intersection.
Second amendment, giving up arms, defenseless vs. own police
Global violence?
Not only violence vs. humans
Choice of non- violence, Protecting our own children?
Needs lots of amending, circumscribe terms.
Non-violence as tactic vs. philosophy?
Extent of violence – self defense? Sweatshop labor? Property destruction.
Overall the group agreed with the points but had issues with the language.
GROUP #8
Re: Point 1:
- Some voiced concern that this statement contradicted our desire as a movement to encourage decentralization of power.
- Others acknowledged the symbolism of NYC as the center of corporate greed.
Re: Point 6:
- Some were concerned with the word “truth”. We would replace this with the idea that the media should represent a diversity of interpretations and have more media accountability.
Re: Point 7:
- We wondered who defines these human rights and would indigenous communities’ and cultures’ needs be a high priority?
Re: Point 8:
- Some wondered about this issue of self-defense. Is this okay? How do we address violence from the state?
Re: Point 9:
- When discussing prejudice, we should replace the word “past” with “past, present, and future.”
Re: Point 10:
- Some were confused by this point. Are we hoping to promote harmony between existing systems or to supersede them?
Unaddressed:
- It was also noted by some that this document does not address the problem of representation in our political system [and the] political process.
- Democracy and feminism not addressed either.
GROUP #9
Re: Point 1:
- Why should NYC be the focal point? What are we hoping to achieve with that statement? We’re not the first people to do this – there was also Egypt and Spain. Having it centralized reinforces the same model of centralized power we are trying to dismantle.
- Others in the group could see why you said this, as NYC is the financial hub in many ways. But how can NYC survive the winter? Shouldn’t we hope that others will take up the baton? If we were to remain the focal point then we need a plan to keep a physical presence here in the park.
- There are many who feel we don’t need to make ourselves and NYC special. This need to be special is part of the problem
Re: Point 2:
- YES!
Re: Point 3:
- Someone noticed a contradiction between this point and point #1. This point is about decentralization and yet #1 was all about centralization. We think all places shoul be their own hub and no hierarchy of OWS.
Re: Point 4:
- We want education for education’s sake, not for the economy. It should be free too.
Re: Point 5:
- The word “reappropriate” might be wrong. We’re not trying to take, [we want] to go beyond that model to a new one. New bottom line: people and planet.
Re: Point 6:
- Someone thinks the word “truth” is problematic. Perhaps instead – diversity of interpretation and more accountability.
Re: Point 7:
- Whose definition of human rights? We should redefine rights. We should expose how they are being undermined.
Re: Point 8:
- What about self-defense? Some in the group felt this was okay. In the presence of our movement being attacked, isn’t this okay?
- What about violence from the state?
Re: Point 9:
- We need “past, present, and future,” not just “past.”
Re: Point 10:
- Some were confused by this comment. What do we mean by facilitate? Do we mean helping discussion? Are we looking towards encouraging religious/spiritual harmony? In which case, can we say “we should promote harmony between different faith, spiritual, and philosophical positions?”
- Others felt that the word “dialogue” was better than “harmony.” Others suggested “a cultivation of tolerance between value systems.”
Unaddressed:
- It was noted that we did not address the political system and the problem of representation in this document.
Enormous appreciation for Person for undertaking to get the Vision and Goals site up and running and making all this accessible to everyone that is looking for it, and presenting it so beautifully. I know this was done alone with great effort to represent the interests of all the participants of the working group, and it is nevertheless inevitable that some individuals will want modifications of format and of particular wording.
After reading the notes from the breakout groups, I have this comment to share.
I think it is pretentious to think we can represent the world community. We can merely try our best to represent our own collective and personal struggles and experiences. Through the process of consensus, individual meaning takes on a broader, more representative, inclusive meaning. Other communities around the country and the world may be inspired by us to engage in their own processes of consensus and create their own representative, inclusive meanings. I do not believe that any of these consensus meanings can abstracted from the uniqueness of their particular, local, unique experiences. It would be presumptuous of us to attempt to speak for others.
David,
We spoke briefly in person at Liberty Plaza during the Think Tank. While it may seem pretentious to try and represent all of humanity through our own personal visions, I believe that it is this universalist impulse that must guide us in any program for global emancipation. Certain local variations are permissible, but other rights should be considered inviolable regardless of locale. Our own vision can surely be modified according to the input of the global community, but we must be bold in our vision for an emancipated society (without borders or boundaries).
Person,
I think that, on the contrary, we should aim to prepare a document for all of humanity. This is not pretentious; it is the only adequate position.
Best,
Ross
Hello David, Ross and all other persons who may be reading this as well as Person with a capital P
I am writing to voice my agreement with David.
It is precisely our own local experience and unique bio-regional needs that sensitize us to a global perspective. By being present in our locale, with our community, and responding to the needs reflected in each others eyes when we meet in person, we are intrinsically linked to the global community.
We can not pretend to know, or presume to intuit what a farmer in Indonesia or a street kid in Port au Prince is feeling or needs. It is indeed condescending to say we can speak for them. They can speak for themselves. They can, I am sure, and it’s imperative that they do speak for themselves and to each other, and get organized and become empowered by the support they give each other. It’s imperialistic to think we need to do that for them and the results of such paternal thinking is damaging to the people it is done to under the guise of “helping” the result is a dis-empowerment and a dependence.
I agree that by engaging in the act of direct democracy, daily, in person, and recording those interactions online in a transparent way, ought to (hopefully) inspire others to in turn engage with their local communities in much the same way. This will spread like mycelium, linking us all together and forming something like the 100th monkey phenomenon.
Additionally, I submit to you, dear reader, that we cannot expect to achieve consensus through the internet. We cannot expect to make decisions nationally or globally through the internet. The internet is a useful communication and education tool. It is not a substitute for direct democratic bodies.
Not everyone has a computer. How can one pretend that you are making a consensus decision for the nation or even, say, the east coast, if you dont include all people regardless of their socio-economic status?
One last thing: Not having a list of demands is, in my opinion, the smartest thing we have done. More on that later.
thanks for listening to me
Lopi
Jim has asked someone to post his summary of the Breakout Sessions. Please find his summary here: http://www.nycga.net/groups/vision-and-goals/docs/jims-summary-of-breakout-groups-discussing-goals-and-visions-blueprint
Dear David Lichtman, thank you for your kind words. I respectfully disagree that our efforts are pretentious. We are seeking to create a unifying set of visions and goals for our future based on peoples’ contributions and this is only representative of OWS NYC. In addition to unified visions and goals, there are also many discussions about solidarity with other groups and even other individuals. –Abe
S
Sorry for not being more clear. I intended to make the point that it would be presumptuous of us to speak for the world. Our Process aims at being inclusive of all voices that want to be included, whether in person or on the internet. Our goal is a consensus of diversity. Diversity is not lost in consensus. Even in such a diversity, however idealistic, as we have in Occupy Wall Street, we cannot presume to represent the world. Our consensus is unique to Occupy Wall Street and our unique social, economic and political systems as well as unique to our individual personal struggles. And so, our consensus is unique. The greater the diversity represented within our consensus, the greater its possible resonance with others and the more likely the unique voice of Occupy Wall Street will inspire others to find their own unique voices. Our vision may be for the human race, but our vision is based on our unique experiences. Let’s try to create a vision that will resonate in and inspire other peoples struggling for human dignity, as the people Tunisia, Egypt, and Wisconson have done for us.
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